Le Banquet des Généraux

Welcome to our discussion forum!

You are not logged in.

#1 2007-05-23 09:52:37

Philip Thomas
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2007-05-16
Posts: 45
Website

Operation Alberich

I like the card, but why only France or Belgium, why not Germany?

Offline

 

#2 2007-05-23 10:52:13

Klaus Knechtskern
Member
Registered: 2007-05-21
Posts: 8

Re: Operation Alberich

I think the reasoning is the same like for Landships/RTC

Offline

 

#3 2007-05-23 14:00:54

The Guru
-
Registered: 2007-03-07
Posts: 739

Re: Operation Alberich

I like the card, but why only France or Belgium, why not Germany?

Operation Alberich implied applying scorched earth to a rather large geographical zone. Villages were burnt down to the ground, wells were poisoned, all facilities were systematically destroyed. The population was deported.
For obvious political reasons, it would have been absolutely UNTHINKABLE to do this sort of things on German soil.


"It is well that war is so terrible - lest we should grow too fond of it." General Lee.

Offline

 

#4 2007-05-23 19:11:46

Philip Thomas
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2007-05-16
Posts: 45
Website

Re: Operation Alberich

Ok, that makes sense.

Klaus, what is the logic for RTC being only France and Belgium? You'll notice that in the Banque des Generaux variant the equivalent to RTC (Allied Tank Corps) now can be used in Germany as well...

Offline

 

#5 2007-05-23 19:47:52

The Guru
-
Registered: 2007-03-07
Posts: 739

Re: Operation Alberich

You'll notice that in the Banque des Generaux variant the equivalent to RTC (Allied Tank Corps) now can be used in Germany as well...

Indeed, I don't quite know what's the idea behind excluding Germany. After all, Alsace-Lorraine IS Germany too...


"It is well that war is so terrible - lest we should grow too fond of it." General Lee.

Offline

 

#6 2007-05-23 20:04:44

Philip Thomas
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2007-05-16
Posts: 45
Website

Re: Operation Alberich

Ah, rereading the card I deduce that Operation Alberich is one of the 20 extra cards in the Player's Guide (which I have on order, but not yet received). I had been thinking it was your own creation. That makes a bit more sense.

But, actually, the card is pretty strange. Surely a planned withdrawal would be better represented by something like the 'Withdrawal' card, with the occupied territory actually being ceded to the allies...

Offline

 

#7 2007-05-23 20:41:08

The Guru
-
Registered: 2007-03-07
Posts: 739

Re: Operation Alberich

I don't think so. The staged withdrawal to the Hindenburg Line was not important enough to imply the loss of a space; It ranged from 10 to 50 km from the original front lines, and left only a devastated territory to the Allies. Historically it happened in the Cambrai area (of course Cambrai remained in German hands). Losing the space would thus be disproportionate: it was more like a realignment of the front.
the reason why I chose the card for the variant was part of a policy to make  the German lines stronger during mid-war (when Allied offensives were incapable of breaching them) and more fragile at the very end of the game (reinforced tank Corps, Everyone into Battle...) to allow the "Black day of the German Army" late war collapse.


"It is well that war is so terrible - lest we should grow too fond of it." General Lee.

Offline

 

#8 2007-05-24 11:05:50

Klaus Knechtskern
Member
Registered: 2007-05-21
Posts: 8

Re: Operation Alberich

Difficult terrain west of the Rhine.

Ted Racier wrote about this on Nov, 8th 1999:

The terrain in Germany (until you are over the Rhine) is not suitable tank country-at least for WWI era tanks. I suppose Aachen might be included, but really, the point of the Card is to help deal with the "historic" trenches of the western front. If the Germans never advance into France or are driven out early it is possible the tank would never be developed (so if the Germans settle for a passive west front the Allies can just keep Landships and RTC as OPS cards). If they are driven out late, the tank has fulfilled its historic role.

I hope that helps as explanation

Offline

 

#9 2007-05-24 13:33:38

The Guru
-
Registered: 2007-03-07
Posts: 739

Re: Operation Alberich

Alsace-Lorraine is West of the Rhine, but is still part of Germany.
Furthermore, I think that the fact that Strasbourg has only one connection (to Nancy), giving it a strong defensive advantage, represented the Rhine defensive bonus.

However, I agree that the terrain in Alsace-Lorraine is not particularly suitable for Tanks. Ted's explanation is convincing enough. I think I'll remove Germany on the Tanks card too...

On top of that, it is well that offensive ambitions across the Rhine are not too  encouraged, because the French, for political reasons, were historically opposed to it.

Thanks, Klaus


"It is well that war is so terrible - lest we should grow too fond of it." General Lee.

Offline

 

#10 2007-06-08 22:53:21

Vinci
Praelatus
Registered: 2007-03-15
Posts: 273

Re: Operation Alberich

Not sure if the terrain factor is a good explanation - terrain around strasbourg is probably no worse than terrain around Nancy or verdun - so why should tanks not be useable in one and useable in the other?

As long as trenchwarfare happened, developping tanks makes sense - no matter where the trenches are, in France, Belgium or Germany. So why limit geographic use of tanks.

Whether the Allied player would actually contemplate attacking into Germany is his strategic choice


Die unmittelbare Folge davon ist, dass man die moeglichst groesste Zahl von Truppen auf den entscheidenden Punkt ins Gefecht bringen muesse. ... Dies ist der erste Grundsatz in der Strategie. - Von Clausewitz (1832)

Offline

 

#11 2007-06-08 23:19:30

The Guru
-
Registered: 2007-03-07
Posts: 739

Re: Operation Alberich

The terrain around Strasbourg is significantly more hilly and forested than Nancy and Verdun. In addition, the area had been quite densely fortified by the Germans between 1870 and 1914.
The French wanted to foster separatism in the German Rhineland provinces, as a buffer -under French guarantees- against Germany for the post-war era. The French therefore wanted to abstain of any provocations that would compromise that plan.
PoG players understandably do not care about post-war political consequences. But political issues are represented, and forced upon the player through abstract mechanisms, or the game wouldn't be an historical simulation.


"It is well that war is so terrible - lest we should grow too fond of it." General Lee.

Offline

 

#12 2007-06-09 19:52:35

Vinci
Praelatus
Registered: 2007-03-15
Posts: 273

Re: Operation Alberich

With all due respect - I disagree on the terrain factor, according to my knowledge there are no significant differences - if there were then strasbourg location would need to be upgraded to forest. As for the fortifications - they are included in the fact that it is a 3 strength fort area
the last argument is the most baffeling of all to me.. ..firstly as you rightly pointed out earlier Strasburg IS germany for game purposes ..; secondly...are you saying the french did NOT want to invade germany... euh... the whole point was to knock germany out of the war (by all means necessary) and if need be by going all the way to Berlin (which is why there is a VP bonus to attack Berlin)
Nothing a-historical about simulating that


Die unmittelbare Folge davon ist, dass man die moeglichst groesste Zahl von Truppen auf den entscheidenden Punkt ins Gefecht bringen muesse. ... Dies ist der erste Grundsatz in der Strategie. - Von Clausewitz (1832)

Offline

 

#13 2007-06-09 21:42:59

The Guru
-
Registered: 2007-03-07
Posts: 739

Re: Operation Alberich

according to my knowledge there are no significant differences

There are. The map of Home before the Leaves Fall, a very well researched piece of work based on WW1 maps, clearly shows the Strasbourg area as densely forested as around Metz, but in addition screened by hilly and mountainous crests. To a wargamer's eye, clearly unsuitable for armoured operations. I'll provide a scan.

then strasbourg location would need to be upgraded to forest.

I believe it very obviously should (and thus immune to tanks, as Metz is). Maybe the (strange) reason why it wasn't is the same as the (strange) reason why Strasbourg wasn't granted a Trench1 in the first place?
However, since the variant rules give Strasbourg a Trench1 to start with -and it will most likely never go below trench0-, and with the restriction on the Tank card, it barely makes any difference, so there is no need to change.

the last argument is the most baffling of all to me.. ..firstly as you rightly pointed out earlier Strasburg IS germany for game purposes ..; secondly...are you saying the french did NOT want to invade germany... euh...

Ok, I'll correct. When I wrote "the German Rhineland provinces", I meant the ones on the German side of the Rhine. The French, of course, never considered Alsace-Lorraine as Germany. In this case I only put forward the terrain issue, which is in my opinion quite sufficient.
Just give me time to produce the map.

Thanks for the close attention, anyway.


By the way, you're not arguing about this JUST because you're dying to unleash your tanks on the Homeland defense of your current opponent, are you? ... wink


"It is well that war is so terrible - lest we should grow too fond of it." General Lee.

Offline

 

#14 2007-06-15 22:10:03

Vinci
Praelatus
Registered: 2007-03-15
Posts: 273

Re: Operation Alberich

not JUST because of that (to much of an honest wargamer for that), that being said: of course it would be an interesting option... big_smile

failing that i guess i'll just recycle them as ops cards, not a bad option either tongue


Die unmittelbare Folge davon ist, dass man die moeglichst groesste Zahl von Truppen auf den entscheidenden Punkt ins Gefecht bringen muesse. ... Dies ist der erste Grundsatz in der Strategie. - Von Clausewitz (1832)

Offline

 

#15 2007-06-15 22:37:23

The Guru
-
Registered: 2007-03-07
Posts: 739

Re: Operation Alberich

i'll just recycle them as ops cards, not a bad option either

The added Ops capacity will then represent the development of alternative solutions to deal with that particular military situation.


"It is well that war is so terrible - lest we should grow too fond of it." General Lee.

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
Designed by Applejuice Overdose
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson